PKK Leader: We Had 5 Years of Direct and Indirect Negotiations With Turkey

The leader of the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) Murat Karayilan, speaking to Rudaw in his mountain base. Photo Rudaw.

ERBIL, Iraqi Kurdistan -- In an exclusive interview with Rudaw, Murat Karayilan, the leader of the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) said five years of peace talks with Turkey failed because the government of Recep Tayyip Erdogan did not honor promises it made during the talks. Karayilan said that unless Turkey grants Kurds autonomy, full cultural rights and releases all political prisoners, the PKK will refuse to lay down arms.

Rudaw: Kurds in all parts of Kurdistan expressed solidarity for the death of 35 civilian Kurds killed in North Kurdistan by Turkish warplanes. On the official level in Iraqi Kurdistan, condolences were offered too. Was the solidarity up to the level expected?

Murat Karayilan: The government of Justice and Development Party (AKP) has declared a comprehensive war against the Kurdish people and Kurdistan’s struggle for freedom. Through that war, it is trying to subordinate the people. The Turkish state and other occupiers (of Kurdistan) are doing all they can to prevent Kurds from benefiting from the redesigning and reshaping of the Middle East. They also intend to besiege the Kurdistan Region. In the past, a common position shared by Turkey, Iran and Syria to that effect existed and it continues up to this day. They want to weaken the Kurdish people. That is why they carried out the attack in Roboske. But the reaction by the Kurdish people against it and their protests everywhere was very important.

“The occupiers cannot massacre Kurds no matter which part of Kurdistan or what village they may live in.”

First, the reaction showed that the occupiers cannot massacre Kurds no matter which part of Kurdistan or what village they may live in. Kurds support one another. This is a strong message to occupiers.

Second, the protests and solidarity by the Kurdish people showed that Kurds are an active nation. It is true that there are boundaries separating Kurds, but all Kurds share similar sentiments.

I respect and salute the valuable stance of the Kurds, especially in South (Iraqi) Kurdistan. Also it is a positive and laudable position that the president of the Kurdistan Region (Massoud Barzani) sent a delegation to attend the first day of the funeral for the victims.

The (Turkish) Prime Minister (Recep Tayyip Erdogan) has thanked the chief of staff of the military. He said “nothing has been done deliberately and it was a natural thing.” It is noteworthy that he did not apologize but chose to thank the officers who carried out the massacre. If 35 Turks had been killed in an ambush in Bursa or Izmir, the whole government would have rushed there. There would have been at least three days of public mourning. But they did not do anything about this incident because the victims were Kurds.

There is a clear discrimination. Why a delegation by the Kurdistan Region’s president crosses the border to attend the funeral, and all lawmakers from the Peace and Democracy Party (BDP) in Ankara and Istanbul attended the funeral, but no one from the government attended? Even the governor of Sirnak did not attend. It was clear they did not consider the incident a cause of concern and later started the (New Year) celebrations.

Apology is not enough. If there is rule of law, then those who gave orders for the attack and the perpetrators must be held accountable. They have committed a crime by killing 35 innocent unarmed Kurds, 17 of whom were children. This is barbarism. Where in the world would you see this kind of brutality in the 21st century? This shows it is an occupying country. The massacre is a threat to all Kurds. They carried out the massacre to threaten Kurds. This threat is evident from their (government) position and from the position of the army.

Rudaw: You said you will avenge the lives of the victims of the Roboske attack. Don’t you think it is better to take the revenge through political means and not armed methods?

“Where in the world would you see this kind of brutality in the 21st century?”

Murat Karayilan: This is what I said, “Let nobody be sad. We won’t let the blood of these individuals be wasted. We will want justice for them.” I said that and it can include everything. Our people are staging protests everywhere and demand accountability. We are demanding revenge through diplomatic, political and legal means. If it is needed, then we will do it through military means. In other words, we owe it to the 35 young men who were killed. We will not let their blood be wasted. We will make the Turkish occupier pay for it.

Rudaw: How do you see the remarks of Turkish deputy Prime Minister Bulent Arinc that Kurdish rights will be enshrined in the new constitution of Turkey and that Kurdish identity and language will be recognized?

Murat Karayilan: Arinc’s remarks are not serious. We see these remarks within the framework of the war waged against us. From time to time they float such remarks in order to create some hope for some parties. Then they create rift and weakness. If Arinc is serious, then let him end the isolation of (PKK’s jailed leader Abdulla Ocalan at) Imrali. Let them release the 5,000 Kurdish politicians who have been put in prison for no reason. Let them stop the killing operations. Let them take practical steps. Why do they talk in parliament? Now there is pressure on our people and society. Our leader is in prison. The democratic Kurdish politicians are all in prison. The heads of Kurdish civic groups, Kurdish unionists, elders and young, Kurdish women, lawyers and journalists are in prison. 

Who have they left outside the bars? They have detained all the leading figures and do not let them defend themselves in their mother tongue. They ban Kurdish language in courts. After all this, Arinc says ‘we will grant Kurds all their rights?’ How can we even believe him? His remarks are not serious. They make these remarks to hide the massacres and the truth about who they are. Therefore, such remarks have no value.

Rudaw: What about the policy of openness that Turkish Interior Minister Besir Atalay has been talking about? Have they talked to you or the Kurdish side in general about it? What do you expect from them?

Murat Karayilan: There are no talks between us and the Turkish state. As far as I know there are no talks between the Turkish state and any Kurdish group. First we have to ask what the first “democratic opening” was about to have any hopes about this second one? This man, Besir Atalay, lied to the whole society for two years. He said ‘we will bring about democratic opening and then it became clear that it was a plan to eliminate the Kurdish liberation movement. 

“Just like Saddam they say “we are brothers. We are friends and we will grant you your rights.”

Now that they are in a limbo again, they say they will start the second opening. At the same time, Atalay says, “we work on the basis of unilateral integration.” They want to integrate Kurds into themselves. That means melting Kurds. There is nothing as recognizing the Kurdish nation in the mind and philosophy of the AKP. They say the Kemalists’ denial of Kurds was wrong. There are Kurds, but the Turkish people will absorb everybody. They don’t say there are two peoples in Turkey. They say there is one people.

They don’t want to accept Kurds as the second nationality in Turkey. If they accepted this, then there will be no problem. They say Kurds are our brothers and can sing and speak in their language. But they don’t accept Kurds as a nation. They use a political, mysterious and hypocritical language. This Besir Atalay is an expert on using hypocritical language. All his words are based on lies.

We have no meetings with them and pin no hopes on their remarks. They are making such remarks because they intend to wage a complicated war. They are intent on war, just like Saddam. They follow Saddam’s policies. Didn’t Saddam say he would give Kurds autonomy only to end the Kurdish revolt? Didn’t he form fake autonomy through his servants? That is what the AKP is doing, too. Just like Saddam they say “we are brothers. We are friends and we will grant you your rights.” But they don’t do that in practice.

In that sense, they are worse than Saddam. Their fascist and tyrannical mentality is not different from Saddam’s. In some respects, they are harsher than Saddam was. They don’t accept Kurds as a nation. Everything they say is aimed at undermining the Kurds and create rifts between the Kurds and crush their spirit of resistance. Within this framework their media and journalists, writers and experts are waging a psychological warfare against the Kurds day and night. AKP ministers are overseeing this warfare. That is why we see their words in that same context. Until they take practical steps, no one should believe in them.

Rudaw: Was the return of two groups of PKK members to Turkey in 2009 the outcome of peace talks between your group and Turkey that took place in Oslo?

“The meetings in Oslo were serious efforts to find a lasting solution.”

Murat Karaliyan: The meetings in Oslo were serious efforts to find a lasting solution. It is not wise to reveal the details of all the meetings now. But there were continuous talks in Oslo and on Imrali Island. The return of two groups of PKK as was part of the peace talks and it was in fact the suggestion of Erdogan himself. For that he sent a team to meet with our leader (Abdulla Ocalan) and a team to meet with Kurdistan Region President Massoud Barzani. We received the message from both sides and after a meeting; we decided to send to Turkey two groups of our members.

The peace process was about to reach a deadlock and to help it continue we saw the idea of sending home two teams of our members as wise. Erdogan made that suggestion in order to strengthen his position. Among our members we chose those who didn’t have any court orders against them in Turkey. The two groups were from our guerrillas and from the Makhmur camp. They peacefully crossed the Habur Bridge and said, “We have come on the invitation of leader Ocalan. We have no regrets and we have come for peace,” For those alone they are no in jail.

Rudaw: What role did the Kurdistan Region play in those talks? It is said that some peace talks were held in Salahaddin.

Murat Karayilan: To arrange the talks between us and Turkey an international organization was formed in Europe. The talks started with our members in Europe. At the same time talks were held in Imrali. At first the talks were not direct. They were carried out through intermediaries for two years. But later they gradually become direct talks and 4-5 delegates from each side carried out direct talks for three years. Each meeting ended with some results. But unfortunately the Turkish side never honored the outcome of any of the meetings.

On the one hand they would meet with us and on the other hand they would arrest Kurdish politicians and launch military operations. We would ask them why they did that and they would reply, “It is done by another wing and we cannot stop them. We will try to stop them.”

Later on we realized that that was not the case. They were all in on it. In Turkey there is only one person who runs everything and that person is Erdogan. He decides everything. There is no dissent in his government and if there, he has brought it under control. But after he managed to strengthen his position, he showed his true side. He turned violent. He became confident and stopped listening to anyone.

“Unfortunately the Turkish side never honored the outcome of any of the meetings.”

As for talks in Salahaddin, that is not true. Talks were held only in Oslo. But we had informed our brothers in Iraqi Kurdistan and they were aware of the talks. They were happy about the talks, but played no role.

Rudaw: In a previous interview with Rudaw, you said that the decision by the ETA group in Spain to lay down arms was the right move, but that the situation in Turkey is not suitable for PKK to lay down arms. Can you explain what it takes for the PKK to lay down arms against Turkey?

Murat Karayilan: The Basque region in Spain has autonomy. In Spain all the different ethnic groups were granted autonomy. The different regions in Spain are exercising their rights through autonomy. The same thing is necessary in eastern Turkey. Turkey needs to write a new constitution like Spain. The Turkish government is currently in a process of writing a new constitution and I believe Spain can be used as an example. You asked me to explain this issue in numbers. Here are the following solutions:

1. Kurds and their identity must be recognized in Turkey’s new constitution.

2. Self-determination, autonomy or federalism must be granted the Kurds in Turkey.

3. The Turkish government must grant the Kurds all cultural rights and allow Kurds to study in their mother tongue. All ethnic groups in Turkey must be equal in their cultural rights. The Kurds should have as many rights as the Turks have in their country.

4. Today, our leader and more than 8,000 of our members are in Turkish prisons. They are all innocent. If you say because we are at war with them, the Turks have killed more of us. More than 17,000 Kurds were killed on the orders of Turkish leaders. They burnt more than 5,000 of our villages. First, they must release our leader and all the other prisoners.   

I can count more crimes but I don’t need to mention them all here. In order for the Kurdish community to progress socially, economically, and politically, the government must compensate the victims and plan many projects in the Kurdish areas. The government should take steps in this regard. A social peace process in Turkey must be created. How can these things be done? In the new constitution Kurdish ethnicity must be recognized and the Kurds must be granted self-determination. The Kurds should be allowed to study in their mother tongue. I would give priorities to these points.

“As long as the Turkish military is a threat to the Kurds and their achievements, the guerrillas will continue to bear arms.”

Many people in South Kurdistan say that the PKK is still choosing armed struggles. That’s a wrong interpretation. It is true that we have weapons and we are still at war, but we are not saying armed struggle is the solution. We only use arms to defend ourselves. We have more people in the political struggle. You can see how people pour into the streets and carry out activities. We consider these activities as struggle and uprising. We will reach our goals through people’s voice and we mostly depend on this. But the Turkish government uses force to destroy us and so we carry arms to defend ourselves. As long as the Turkish military is a threat to the Kurds and their achievements, the guerrillas will continue to bear arms.     

If the new constitution recognizes the Kurdish ethnicity in Turkey and there are no more threats on the Kurds inside Turkey, I believe the Turkish military will cease its military operation into territories of South Kurdistan as well. Once the Turkish government accepts the Kurds inside Turkey, it will no longer consider the Kurds outside Turkey as enemy. As a result there won’t be any more threats on north and south Kurdistan. That is when the issue of laying down arms will come into practice. But, none of these things have happened yet. If we lay down arms the Turkish government will destroy the Kurds completely. Today, when the BDP and other Kurdish organizations are courageously speaking out inside Turkey, it is because of the force balance between the guerrillas and the Turkish government.  

The Turkish government wants to destroy the guerrilla by using expressions as ‘outlaw group’ and such, to stop the Kurdish youth from joining us. The relations between the Kurdistan Region and Turkey are essentially based on this balance of force. Today, the guerrilla is playing a role in protecting the Kurds’ achievements. Once these threats are gone, we will discuss the subject of laying down arms.

Rudaw: Avni Ozgurel, a writer for Radikal newspaper says that the PKK will lay down arms by next summer. What can you tell us about this?

Murat Karayilan: Not only Avni Ozgurel, Taha Akyol and some other writers have said the same thing. I don’t know on what basis they make such claims. I believe they are aware of the plans of the AKP government. The AKP government plans to declare a war against us this winter that will continue through spring. By that time we are being destroyed and the government will have reached its goals and a new stage will begin for Turkey.

“Their 2011 plan was to destroy us the way Sri lanka destroyed the Tamil Tiger guerrillas.”

Maybe it is based on this theory that they make such statements. AKP says ‘we will strike the core of the PKK and we will force them to surrender to our demands and lay down their arms.’ It seems the AKP has such plans and those people are aware of it. But that is impossible. How? Because they cannot destroy us. They will be destroyed instead. We have experience and we have a nation behind us. Our forces will be able to stand against Turkey in every way. They have attacked us many times. They pressured our leadership psychologically and isolated our leader just to force us to give in to their demands. Their 2011 plan was to destroy us the way Sri lanka destroyed the Tamil Tiger guerrillas. 

They conducted many military operations. They wanted to divide the Kurds. They pressured our nation. They wanted to scare us. But so far the AKP government has not reached even one goal. The Turkish government failed in its plans. Today, our nation is stronger than ever. Kurdish politicians are prepared. The guerrillas are stronger than ever. That’s why they (Turkey) cannot destroy us.