Below is a translated transcript of Rudaw’s interview with the Iraqi politician Tariq al-Hashimi, who served as the vice president of Iraq from 2006 to 2012.
First of all, why did you face punishments while many other Iraqi politicians did not. Do you feel that you are oppressed by those parties that you were partners with within Iraq in the past? Did the parties or Sunni leaders show any stance when you were charged with terror and three death penalty issues against you?
I will one day explain all that in detail. For now, I will speak about it briefly. Yes, many politicians were targeted. But the way they targeted me was completely different. It was not done against me in December 2011, but at the beginning of the period when I embarked on political work in mid-2004. I was targeted from the very beginning. It bears questioning as to why three of my brothers were martyred from April to October 2006. Attempts that were politically motivated to terrorize us which other politicians did not face, were to remove us from the political arena at any cost. There was another attempt in 2009 to charge us with crimes, but late [Iraqi[ president Jalal Talabani dismissed them as being illogical and unacceptable. However, it eventually happened to target me at the end of 2011. In a very inhumane way, they targeted employees of my office, my bodyguards, and me. It was a disaster. The right time will come when I will disclose the disastrous dimensions of these attempts.
No one has been as oppressed as I have been, and it was all baseless and clueless. Why? I have no explanation for that, other than depriving a man of the homeland who truly wanted to serve his country. The second shock was that the former president of the judicial council ignored Section 6 of Article 93 of the Iraqi constitution which authorizes the federal court to look into charges made against high-ranking state employees. Article 93, section 6 stipulates: "Settling accusations directed against the president, the Prime Minister and the Ministers and this shall be regulated by law."
The opposite of that was done against me by the criminal courts, irrespective of my position. This is a constitutional violation. I fell victim to a plot that had previously been organized. Some internal and external parties had a role in it. Also, the closest official [former prime minister Nouri al-Maliki] made me feel ashamed. The current situation does not allow me to recount everything in detail. I say it frankly, had law and constitution been fully implemented concerning the court's role in restoring the rights of the accused, I would not have seen this huge damage."
Concerning the Iraqi list stance, they stood by my side. In solidarity with me, they held rounds of meetings in Erbil which led to efforts to withdraw confidence from the Nouri al-Maliki's government. It was a proud stance that they displayed. My supporters were in a state of shock, due to the huge scale of the target that they staged against me. I did not expect a revolution from them against the oppressions done against me. I just called on them to exercise restraint, in order for the dossier to proceed within the context of the law.
You were in Erbil when you heard in December 2011 that you had been charged with terror by the previous Iraqi government. The Kurdish leadership guaranteed your security. What happened next that made you leave the Kurdistan Region?
First, upon an official invitation from late president Jalal Talabani, I came to Kurdistan, from Baghdad to Sulaimani. For a number of days, he hosted me. Then, I left for Erbil following a recommendation and I was hosted by my dear brother Masoud Barzani. Thankfully, he provided me with all the life essentials to continue to carry out my work. Nevertheless, he very bravely defended me and shouldered the implications of my stay in the Kurdistan Region, and defended my dossier to proceed in a just way. It was a brave stance and I am proud of it. I express my sincere gratitude to other Kurdish brothers from across the political spectrum, organizations, and people who protected me and supported me.
On the basis of a joint invitation from Hamad Bin Khalifa of the state of Qatar and the president of the Republic of Turkey Recep Tayyip Erdogan, I left the Kurdistan Region. I informed my dear brother Masoud Barzani and late president Jalal Talabani of my trip through official correspondence. During my stay in Istanbul, I met my dear brother Masoud Barzani who was in Turkey on a visit. I told him of my intention and that I was interested in returning in a few days. He fully supported it. But later, I realized it would be in my interest if I stayed a bit longer abroad until things became clear following mounting pressures to withdraw confidence from the government from Erbil. Erbil had at the time become a decision-making station and a place where parties that were of the idea that confidence must be withdrawn from the Maliki government, used to gather there. However, the scene became much more complicated, after the efforts failed. At this point, I realized I would embarrass my Kurdish brothers If I were to return to Erbil, despite the fact that they never said so. There were pressures on [former Kurdistan Region] president [Masoud] Barzani in order for me not to return to Erbil. Hence, I decided to stay abroad. I have said it time and again that my natural place as an Iraqi is my homeland.
Despite the fact that the Kurdistan Region endured much pressure as you stated, you were against the Kurdistan Region's independence referendum in 2017, why?
Never. My stance must not be misinterpreted. You should instead name it a subjective or responsible stance. I say it clearly and frankly; I agreed with the stance of the Kurdish nation and I will remain as such. I am a very good history reader and I pray for a bright and good future. However, I am at the same time a real politician. I know very well what dreams could now be fulfilled and what dreams are decided on an international and regional level. The Kurdistan Region is a self-governing experience. It must not be destroyed due to a false reading from the regional states. And as an Iraqi, I want my country to sustain its cultural and religious plurality and co-existence. An Iraq without the existence and partnership of Kurds along with Arabs and Turkmen and other ethnic and sectarian groups cannot exist. As a reminder, I will re-read my message to you that I had written about the referendum; how unpleasant it is to see my homeland (Iraq) being partitioned into pieces. I also feel sad to see that some people expose the unity of Iraq to the danger of repression, marginalization, embezzlement, and the loss of sovereignty. It is a great goal to keep Iraq united, but the unity of Iraq alone is not enough to prevent the failed individuals from assuming power who do politics in the wrong way. It is the right of the nation to look for their replacements. Iraq is gripped by a governance crisis. Yet, politics is a practical art that requires a subjective and balanced perspective on interests and corruption. Eventually, we should make a reasonable and suitable decision to bring all of us together to prevent [corrupted politicians] from taking us to an invisible future. Now, I ask you, is it a negative stance?
Ever since you left, for Istanbul and then Doha, you have not done any political activities. Have you retired from political work after this long career?
That depends on what is meant by political work because I practice politics as opposition from its broadest doors and I have not stopped and strive to invest in the circumstance available to me and I am active in getting my voice and positions to the countries, organizations, and personalities. I attend the meetings and symposiums, I lead an organization (Global Campaign for the Support of the Iraqi People), I have the Tajdid electronic newspaper, and I run the International Association for the Defense of Justice, which is concerned with the file of human rights in Iraq. I write research and give lectures about Iraq in universities and research centers. I visit countries and meet with officials, and I may or may not announce that, and my visits to the headquarters of the European Union in Brussels and following that to Turkey are known. I am also active with lobbies and pressure groups and international media institutions. In addition, my contact with my active public as the head of (the renewal movement) has not stopped. One thing that has changed from the past is my reluctance to appear in the media on satellite news channels, and this is a personal position and diligence on my part that I have taken in light of the current conditions and I can reappear again at any time.
What do you think are the backgrounds of your accusations, along with some Sunni leaders, of terrorism, and who was behind these accusations and their goals?
I cannot hide the fact that the targeting is sectarian specifically, and the evidence for that is that it is limited to Sunni Arabs only. It did not target a Shiite symbol or leader, nor a Kurd, nor a Turkmen, nor a Chaldean, nor a Yezidi, nor a Sabian. Even affiliation alone constitutes an accusation, just as Article (4) terrorism separated us and was used on a large scale and did not differentiate between a terrorist and a man of peace, everyone was suspected and treated accordingly. We were subjected to a great injustice without justification, as if it were Cenmar’s punishment after we decided to participate in the post-2003 governing regime, angered our people, and we endured a lot in this decision without any benefit. Our principled stances did not work in resolutely confronting terrorism, which was striking mercilessly without differentiating between one citizen and another. Our position from project Awakenings is known, they have ignored our pleas to devote a national state for the benefit of all, and to achieve real partnership instead of symbolic participation, and even when one component was solely ruling Iraq, we appealed to the wise that they rule with justice without discrimination, marginalization or exclusion, just as no one paid attention to the broad address that I tried so hard to guarantee it a message of reassurance to the other party by saying: (We do not care who rules, but rather how he rules). A new culture that we were unfamiliar with previously accompanied the US-British invasion of Iraq, the American civil ruler Paul Bremer talked about its goals, separated the sons of the one nation, tore its social fabric, and helped the agendas of neighboring countries to deepen it, and here everyone lost, and the current political scene and the terrible decline in various aspects of life is the ideal evidence for what I say, and the lesson must be understood, and awakening begins with justice, the removal of grievances, and the initiation of building a national state, not components.
Are you thinking of returning to Iraq, especially since you expressed your willingness on June 17, 2020, to appear before the Iraqi judiciary, at any time in order to acquit your grounds of all the charges against you, and you asked for “guarantees of fair litigation and in accordance with the constitution”, are there any doubts about the integrity of the Iraqi judiciary?
I respect the just judiciary and consider it a safety valve for societal peace, and I sincerely hope that the judiciary will recover and get rid of pressure and interference, and I have repeatedly demanded that the state provide full protection for judges. And when the judiciary gets rid of pressure and blackmail, there is no doubt that it will enjoy the required independence that will pave the way for the issuance of fair rulings. Yes, I repeat my position as any citizen and declare my readiness to appear before a just and independent judiciary in accordance with the constitution, and if this is achieved tomorrow, I will return to my homeland the next day, and I will not wait for the grace or help of anyone.
If you return to Iraq, will you return to political work?
For every incident, there is a conversation. I am a politician. However, my priority and interest in returning to political activity are not as much as it used to be, as much as I am interested in serving my country and my people with various other activities, and I have many projects for many plans for civil society organizations through which I can be active voluntarily in the service of people and the precedence of values and justice.
How do you view the decision of former Finance Minister Rafi al-Issawi to return to Iraq?
The earned outcome for a man against whom cases were filed and who went to Iraq with courage and appeared before the courts, and they are the ones who decide his fate and future. I am happy for his return and his acquittal of a number of charges and I hope the rest is completed in the next few weeks.
You have always been against external interference in Iraqi affairs. How do you view the broad Turkish attack and incursion into the Iraqi borders in the Kurdistan Region?
I am not happy with it, and I have announced my position on more than one occasion, and I was the one who personally persuaded President Recep Tayyip Erdogan in 2007 to suspend operations that the Turkish army had intended to carry out in the Kurdistan Region in response to the PKK terrorist attacks in which, as I remember, fifteen soldiers were killed. [Former] president Masoud Barzani called me at the time and I was in Amman on my way back from Hajj, and accordingly, I changed my destination from Baghdad to Ankara and persuaded President Erdogan to stop the attack in return for a pledge that the region would clean its lands of terrorists. The position of the Kurdistan Region on terrorism is known, and if the burden of confronting it is beyond its capacity, it is necessary to seek the assistance of neighboring countries. It is an inevitable option, in order for the region to ensure that its lands are not a headquarters or a corridor for terrorism that threatens the national security of neighboring countries. But an organized agreement is required for this cooperation, which has existed since the time of the previous regime, and the circumstance may require its modernization.
How do you evaluate the political performance of the Sunnis or the sons of the Sunni provinces today?
They are trying their best, and the situation is difficult, and political polarization is the master of the situation, and the options are limited. Our suffering is great and the demands of our masses are greater. The files of investigating the fate of the forcibly disappeared and the liberation of the innocent behind prisons, the immigrants, the displaced, and the unjustly pursued by senior politicians… And the state of poverty and devastation in our provinces is at the table of the Sovereignty Alliance, which makes the concerns and priorities of a humanitarian nature and not political.
Do you coordinate with parties or political figures inside Iraq?
I said, as a politician, I practice my activities as an opposition, and I communicate with the elite as well as with the public, and I have not stopped, and social media facilitates this, of course.
Don’t you feel that Iraq needs you in the current circumstances?
Frankly and without exaggeration, certainly yes, the homeland needs me and others, this is my opinion and I want to hear the opinion of others as well. The homeland needs me and my likes more than ever before. I have experience and vision in governance, and I have a determination and desire to complete my mission in serving my country and my Iraqi people. And I sincerely hope that this opportunity will be available to me today and not tomorrow, although I know very well the complexities of the current scene, and I may help in reaching an appropriate solution that prevents slipping into violence and chaos.
In your opinion, will the tripartite alliance hold, and there will be a national majority government, or will we see a consensus government again between the Shiite parties, with the participation of Sunnis and Kurds?
Until now, the political conflict is still the master of the situation, and it is difficult to predict the outcomes of this conflict, although I believe the majority option and a departure from the political norm are more likely; I mean the consensus that prevailed in the formation of previous governments, and today we are reaping its negativities in the political deadlock and failure in running the country. Why do we not humble ourselves and learn from the democratic experiences around the world, and leave the choice to form a majority government, and the rest of the parliamentary blocs turn to opposition and to monitor and hold the majority government accountable, and through this experience, we are moving forward with calculated steps towards building a solid democratic system, I think the results will be better. However, these are just wishes. Without a doubt, past experiences have taught us to escape from political quarrels by resorting to a consensus as a last-minute option, and I think this is what will happen at the end of the line. And when that happens, this time the consensus should focus on solving problems and crises and not relaying them as happened in previous times.
What do you think are the scenarios that can save the political process in Iraq from its current crises?
Iraq is suffering from a governance crisis, which is greater than the political dispute between the Coordination Framework and the tripartite alliance. The crisis concerns everyone and affects everyone, and everyone must contribute to it, and the scenario that I propose is the extension of the caretaker government between six months to a year, during which the call will be made to a national dialogue in which Iraqis inside and outside of the country contribute. Its purpose is to evaluate and review a failed experiment that lasted for 19 years with the aim of straightening it, then writing a social contract, amending the constitution, defining the relationship between the region and the center, and then calling for new elections, and forming a government while noting the documentation of these activities internationally, and for the immunity of the Iraqi decision, it is necessary to put an end to foreign interference, without it there is no hope for change. By the social contract, I mean drawing of the relations between Iraqi citizens as well as between political actors. Here, a well-tested and successful project, for example, the Nelson Mandela project in South Africa, must be taken, and we should take its broad outlines and agree on the details in a manner that suits our society and the nature of our crises.
