Rudaw’s Kamiz Shadadi spoke to the de-facto leader of the Russian-backed People’s Republic of Donetsk Denis Pushilin on Friday, discussing the situation in the separatist region since the outbreak of the war in Ukraine on February 24.
The following is the translated transcript of the interview.
Rudaw: Thank you so much for accepting our interview request during these difficult times. Fierce fighting is ongoing, that is why I would like to ask first, since the beginning of the “special operation”, how far have your forces been able to control the areas in the Donetsk Republic? I mean areas that were out of your control before the fighting.
I can say now 48 areas and villages have been liberated. The operation is continuing. There are still many big cities and residential areas that must be liberated. There is an even bigger effort to liberate Mariupol. The racist armed groups have a bigger presence there. The Neo-Nazi groups are among the ranks of the Ukrainian armed forces. They are using the civilians as human shields, and this has slowed down our advances. Yet, the liberation operation is continuing. Significant victories are recorded every day. Our primary objective is to reach the borders of the former province of Donetsk, which is the border of the People’s Republic of Donetsk, and have as such been defined in our constitution. It is the territory where an independence referendum was held back in 2014.
As President of the Republic, what are the obstacles and difficulties you are facing in terms of providing the right living environment in the areas that you have so far controlled?
Of course, we deliver the very necessary needs of the residents in those areas, such as food and medical supplies, especially medicines to patients and we provide building renovations. In general, all the liberated areas lack electricity, water and gas. When the enemy retreats, they cut off all the power lines, and bomb the areas in which they were stationed before, destroying all buildings and construction, destroying the homes of the people and the administrative buildings. We must rebuild all of this again. After the liberation of the cities, we will first let the security forces finish their mission, and then the administration will be handed down to the civilian authorities.
Do the armed forces of the Republic of Donetsk take part in the operation to liberate your areas alone, or do they also take part in the fighting elsewhere [in Ukraine] alongside the Russian forces? What is the level of cooperation between the two sides?
Real coordination has been established since the beginning. It is because the liberation operation of the territories of the People’s Republics of Donetsk and Luhansk have been conducted with the support of the Russian army. We also have a common mission that is conducted in coordination. For example, at the beginning of March, we could reach the borders of Zaporizhzhia - it was there that our forces and the Russian forces reached each other. As for other regions, we deploy some of the civilian conscripts to provide security for the liberated villages and cities and are under the control of the Russian forces.
Let’s go back a little. Had you ever imagined the launch of an extensive operation like this? Were you ready for this attack? Or was it also difficult for you, especially that you were living an eight-year long ceasefire?
Unfortunately, there was not a true ceasefire these eight years. Our rivals have tried every means available to them to change the borders. Ukraine continued their attacks against us. This of course forces us to constantly be ready. We prepared ourselves because Ukraine could attack any moment. Based on the evidence and information available to us, Ukraine had planned to attack us on 8th of March. It was not just Donbas, they were also planning to attack Crimea, the Russian Crimea. My Luhansk Republic counterpart and I requested the help of the Russian federal government, and the response from the Russian president was both timely and immediate. The special operation was launched on 28th of February. In fact, the operation saved the lives of thousands of people and the residents of the Donbas region. If Ukraine could carry out its plan, genocide could have taken place.
On the other side, the talks are continuing, and terms and conditions are set.
Our objective is to reach the borders of our constitutionally defined republic. As for other regions of Ukraine, the terms for a ceasefire are already defined and stated. The same terms are part of the framework for the Russian-Ukrainian talks. What we are witnessing now is that Ukraine does not want to meet those terms completely. The terms and conditions are normal and easy; Ukraine must be demilitarized - it means it must be demilitarized of any attacking weapons. Ukraine must be cleared from Nazism; it means that all Neo-Nazi and racist parties must be abolished. All the praises and glorification of Nazi collaborators must be banned such as Bandera, Shostakovich and many other disrespectful personalities. Crimea must be recognized as a Russian territory. The two Republics of Luhansk and Donetsk must be recognized - inclusive of the areas that belonged to the former provinces of Luhansk and Donetsk. This means that the constitutional borders must be recognized. Ukraine must also declare itself neutral, it means they must forget about the plans to become a NATO member. All the terms and conditions are normal and easy. If all the conditions are met, there won't be a need to continue using weapons and to continue the fighting.
Is the number of the dead including the civilians and the soldiers high compared to the ferocity and the scope of the war?
In the recent fighting, so far 17 civilian citizens have fallen victim - that is since February 17 when Ukraine prepared for a war. And if I am not mistaken, 152 people have been injured. As regards the number of casualties in the ranks of the army, we of course have victims and injured soldiers. No war could be fought without inflicting casualties.
If we go back to that question, why was there not any political solution to this crisis during those eight years, and what was the need to declare independence? Did your independence movement exist since the foundation of Ukraine, or did it come to existence because of some other reasons?
We must talk about that period when the Soviet Union disintegrated, and new countries were founded. During the Soviet Union, Donbas was a Russian region. When in Ukraine - during the gradual Ukrainization, they first turned all documents into Ukrainian language. Then 50% of the TV programs were only Ukrainian. The school education was only Ukrainian. Every Russian thing, the Russian literature and culture was oppressed. We did not accept that environment. The breaking point started in 2014, when a coup d’état took place in Ukraine, a military coup d’état. The power fell into the hands of the Neo-Nazis, with the support of the radical writers in the community. Then, the first law that was passed with a loud voice in the parliament was banning the Russian language, the language we are born with, speak, and with which we think and dream. They then recognized Nazi collaborators and mercenaries as heroes, people like Bandera and Shostakovich and their collaborators who during the Second World War committed torture and genocide against our people. They cannot become heroes; we do not accept that. We believe the heroes of the Second World War are our ancestors. If we count only the regions of Donetsk and Luhansk -both who were then forced to declare their independence - they number four million. It is a large number, but if we count the Russians and the Russian-speaking people in the south and east, they number a lot more. Instead of holding dialogue, Ukraine on 15th of April launched an anti-terror operation.
We held an independence referendum on the 11th of March. We believe it was a necessary measure we were forced to take. We could not envision a future for us in the new Ukraine, the one that came to existence following the square protests. There was no longer a place for us. The operation they launched was no longer anti-terror; it was indeed a Ukrainian operation against its own citizens. Following the German and French, and of course the Russian initiative for talks, the Minsk agreement was the outcome, it could for a short period cease hostility. Yet, it could not bring about a long-lasting peace. Why didn't Ukraine follow the Minsk agreement? Why did it not follow through its obligations? It was because Ukraine lost its sovereignty after 2014. Ukraine is not entirely independent. Ukraine is a country that its actual owners are giving instructions as to which route it should take. Ukraine has become a country through which NATO is even closer to Russian borders. This will then bring the prospect for a large war against Russia, one that could come even as close to a third world war and that could mean the end of humanity. It is at this stage that Russia should have reacted to the developments. And surely Russia did just that.
As you know, other nations conducted independence referendums in 2017. For example, looking at the Kurdistan Region of Iraq and the Catalonia Region in Spain, both regions held independence referendums. Both Europe and the United States, who were like the supporters of Kurds, did not recognize the referendum of Kurdistan. The same was true for Catalonia. If not for the Russian support, what could have happened to your referendum? How would you look at the independence of Donbas?
At the beginning, following the military coup d’état and when other processes began, especially the referendums of our republics, we were supported by the people of Russia more than the support we received from the Russian government, people of Russia, why? Because we are Russians, too. When Russian people see injustice, they cannot sit tight and stay isolated. That is why, at that stage, we were supported by humanitarian support, followed by political support in the processes for the Minsk agreement. They did not leave us alone; not alone in our quest against Ukraine, but also against the western countries, those who were against us. Throughout the summer of 2014, when our villages and cities were being destroyed and razed to the ground and civilian people were annihilated, all the western countries were silent. I tell you that during the eight-year war, 14, 000 civilian people were killed on the territories of our republic. Just in the people’s republic of Donetsk, 91 children fell victim. The western world never showed those events in their media - as if nothing had happened. These are the western world. Why did they not recognize the independence of Kurdistan and Catalonia? Look, they use all other nations for their own interests. The plight of other people and nations is not interesting for them, is meaningless to them. They either control their territories or look at them as their colonies. They look at such nations with the prism of their interests.
Do you believe the Kurds have the right to become independent?
You know that there are two contradictory articles in the United Nations Charter, written respectively: One: the right to self-determination. The other article: the sovereignty and the territorial integrity of the states. Which one of these two articles is the essential one? I believe the right to self-determination should be the essential one, and the people should have the right to make their own decisions. This is my opinion and understanding on this subject. I believe if the needs and the plight of people were the principle - instead of the economic interests of the states - the global system would have been more just.
Do you have any plans to unite with the Republic of Luhansk or with Crimea? I am asking because you mentioned that on the southern front, your armed forces and the Russian units have united at the southern front, at the Zaporizhzhia line.
Look, now is not the time to talk about this topic. I want to remind you that not only Russia does recognize our independence, South Ossetia and Abkhazia have recognized us. We also have a memorandum of understanding with the Arab Republic of Syria on the recognition of our independence. Those countries that support Russia are also there for us: Cuba, Nicaragua, Venezuela, the Central Republic of Africa and other nations. We are working with these countries as well to recognize our independence. That is why we will wait and see what happens next. At least I can say that the world will not be the same anymore. The hysteria that conquered the world is temporary. On top of it is the sanctions policy against Russia and others. Regarding our plan at the current situation, as the People’s Republics of Donetsk and Luhansk, it is our primary mission to reach our constitutional borders. We will then take actions in line with the wishes and demands of our people. We would do what is right for our people. We will first see what happens to the remainder of Ukraine. Could Ukraine, in its useless and destructive form, survive as a state or not? Or there could be a new foundation on the same land? I can though mention one point with certainty, we would do whatever it takes to stay close to Russia - this won't ever change.
Under all circumstances, do you think you would stay in the new Ukraine, as you termed it. Or would you certainly stay with Russia?
Look. It is yet not clear what happens to Ukraine. What I can say in clear terms is that Ukraine will be demilitarized. Ukraine will be cleared of Nazis. Based on the outcome of such actions, we will make our proper decisions. The Special Operation is continuing.
In your opinion, are there fears that this fierce fighting might create hostilities between the Russian and Ukrainian people?
I can tell you that Donbas has always been a multiethnic region. 130 different ethnicities live here. Donbas is an industrial area and has a big population, since a long time ago. There was never an ethnic conflict. All the ethnicities go about their lives based on support and coexistence. It is because everyone works together in the heavy industries, in the coal factories and in the mines. Everyone needs the support of others. I hope this sets an example even for the rest of Ukraine. The Ukrainians and the Russians are one people, everyone know this very well. You cannot separate them in public, or according to upbringing, or common history, or other criteria. Except for the last eight years, which witnessed attempts to change the situation, the attempts were from abroad. Those attempts were unsuccessful. I think the situation will change now. Ukraine, Belarus and Russia must be together. Only when united can they withstand external threats.
To what extent is the Donbas’ potential enough to develop its economy and improve the standard of living of its people without the support of Russia, which is now under heavy sanctions?
Donbas is an industrial region. Even though it has natural resources and has an industrial potential, the most precious potential of Donbas is its people who are willing and can work for the welfare and the development of their proud country. I am talking about the development of Great Russia. I can say that the potential of Donbas is self-sufficient, especially when we reach our constitutional borders of the People’s Republic of Donetsk.
Finally, I would like to hear from you what you have to say to Kurdish audience, regarding their liberation movement and on your current plight?
Denis Pushilin: It is very important to pick up the right ally, because during the long course of this process, the ally plays a significant role. We are witnessing now Russia and the Russian authorities are fulfilling all their duties, especially when it comes to foreign policy. So long as their partners fulfil their duties, Russia will respect the promises made. That is why one should help those states who have a clear and public policy and any cooperation is based on mutual interests. The western countries including the United States and Britain, showed that they won’t respect their promises, and we can now see what is happening in the world. We can see that the war to control the energy resources continues, and that the interests of other countries and other peoples are out of consideration - including the Kurds.
Here I repeat again, what is your message to the Kurds?
Choose the right ally and the right country, those with whom you have to form relations, have to stay the course with you.
Rudaw reporter: Thank you!
