Dr Najmadin Karim has been the governor of restive Kirkuk province since 2011, when he was elected by the provincial council. The at-times dicey security situation in the oil-rich province and its ethnically diverse capital are nothing new for Karim, who worked as a surgeon in the US for many years. In fact, Karim, 66, was in the emergency room when former US president Ronald Reagan was shot in 1981.
Karim sat down with Rudaw’s Ranj Sangawi to discuss surgery, security and his legacy in Kirkuk.
Rudaw: Neuro-surgery or managing the rivalries of Kirkuk province, which is more difficult?
Najmadin Karim: Of course managing the rivalries is much more difficult. When I do surgery, I am in charge of only one person. When I make a decision as governor, it affects the lives of hundreds of thousands.
Do you prefer your career as a surgeon or governor?
My tenure as a governor will come to an end, but I will always be a surgeon.
Did you have a better life in America or is your life better now as a governor?
I feel very accomplished when I complete a project or when I feel like I have helped some people. But my personal life in terms of finance and stress was much better in the United States.
Did you get more income in the US?
It cannot be compared.
Do you have business projects in Kirkuk like some other politicians?
No, not a single one. My brothers have quit their businesses just to prevent rumors about me.
Do you support your relatives through your public position?
I have some cousins in Chamchamal, two of them are bakers, and some of them are guards. I have and old cousin who does labor work.
Are you satisfied with the quality of life of the people in Kirkuk?
I am happy that the life of people has improved. When I became the governor, there were only four hours of electricity, now Kirkuk has the best electricity service in all Iraq. We have solved problems related to the lack of water. We have built 3,200 schools and paved 1,400km of road. I feel very accomplished.
What is your plan to support the families of the martyrs fallen in the fight against ISIS?
We have plans to give each one of them a piece of land.
If you were not the governor, would you reside in Kirkuk?
Before I became the governor, whenever I visited Kurdistan I would visit Kirkuk to visit my father, the people of Kirkuk and the political parties.
You spent your teenage-hood in Kirkuk; did you experience a love story?
I joined the Kurdish movement at seventh grade.
What about the love story?
At that time schools were not mixed. May you would wave at a girl at a distance or you would tough a girl’s hair, other than that I did not have any love story.
Is your wife from Kirkuk?
She was born in Kirkuk, but she is originally from Badinan area.
How did you get to know each other?
Her father, Abdurrahman Qazi, was a soldier. He was Mustafa Barzani’s assistant leading an armed unit in the Sordash area. He was part of Division 12.
When you asked for her hand, did her family agree at once?
Yes, they very much liked the idea. I had known them before that.
Who asked for her hand for you?
The late Idris Barzani did.
Were you a friend of Idris Barzani?
I have cried for two people, one my brother who was two years younger than me and died in an accident in 1979, and the second one was Idris Barzani.
Have you cried for anyone else?
When Sherko Fatih was martyred I cried for him, he was my right-hand.
Are you satisfied with Kurdistan Region’s dealing with Kirkuk?
For me there is nothing more satisfying than saying that I am 100 percent satisfied with the KRG’s treatment toward Kirkuk. The Kurdistan region has done great things for Kirkuk. Since 20013, the KRG has played a crucial role in returning displaced people to Kirkuk.
Are you satisfied with Massoud Barzani’s actions towards Kirkuk?
Today the Peshmerga forces are protecting Kirkuk, It is true that part of the 70 or 80 forces that belong to the Kurdistan Democratic Party and the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan are here, but they all belong to Kurdistan. It is very important for me to have those forces here. They have controlled the situation. We have to have security forces in Kirkuk, which are paid by the KRG. How can I not be grateful?
How is your relation with Nechirvan Barzani?
He has some characters of his father in him. He is a very good friend of mine. We have very good relations. Meetings with Nechirvan always end with a very positive atmosphere.
Has he ever tried to play party politics with you?
He supports me.
Never?
Believe me, he has helped me even during the time of party rivalries.
Do you have any coordination plan with the KRG prime minister and his deputy on how to manage the oil case?
Today in Kirkuk, some people criticize the KRG’s plan towards Kirkuk, but I met Nechirvan Barzani before the US visit. We had a long discussion and we had a good understanding on many issues. We agreed to protect the rights of Kirkuki people from the oil being exported through Kurdistan region such as petrodollar revenues, provincial development, and the payments of employees in case the federal government cuts the budget of Kirkuk.
Are you saying that you will not accept any political move from Baghdad against Kirkuk?
It is not only Kirkuk, the Kurdistan region also has a budget issues with Kirkuk. The Kurdistan region cannot solve this problem without Kirkuk’s support. If we coordinate together, we will be stronger.
Can the Kirkuk and Kurdistan region oil fields compensate for the 17 percent budget share of the Kurdistan Region?
Oil is abundant in Kirkuk. Lack of production from Kirkuk is because its oil fields are not utilized properly. If we work together, we can guarantee a bright future for Kurdistan. I have told the Americans that our patience with Baghdad is not unlimited.
What was their reaction?
They listen to you but they don’t express their opinion. Sometimes they nod their heads, which means they might agree with what you said.
Would the US prevent Kurdish independence if the Kurds wanted to declare it now?
I have lived in the US, I am very familiar with their mentality. I was not only in America, I was inside American politics. I have personal friends in the Senate. The US will eventually accept the reality.
Sometimes our politicians get really scared. Let me give you two examples. On the 1st of August 1990, George H W Bush then the US president visited the former Soviet Union and declared that he was against the disintegration of the Soviet Union, predicting that it would lead to violence and armed conflict. In 1991, the Soviet Union disintegrated into 17 countries, and there was no armed conflict.
That means we can prepare such a situation, but we need to be able to govern and prepare our people. The second example is the former Yugoslavia. In 1991, James Baker in Belgrade said that Yugoslavia cannot be dissolved, but eventually several states were born from the former Yugoslavia.
Do you think the steps taken by the president of the Kurdistan Region have been courageous?
In my opinion, we have to make the Kurdish people and political parties completely understand the consequences of taking or not taking such steps.
In his meeting with the Kurdish political parties, Masoud Barzani said that the Kurds need to be prepared and united. Do you agree with him?
That meeting is not enough to make such a decision. The people of Kurdistan are not only the 17 or 18 persons that attended the meeting, because there are other components that live in Kurdistan. You have to understand; when you declare independence you might face war and displacement. You have to prepare your people for that.
What is your take on the oil issue?
I think the Kurds have not been able to get the best out of their revenues.
It has not been used wisely or has it been stoles?
When I say they have not been able to get the best out of it that includes corruption as well. We have a large number of unproductive people on the government’s payroll. We import everything. We should have paid more attention to agriculture. Now, 70 percent of Iraq and Kurdistan’s budget goes to payment and the other 30 percent is misused.
Have KDP and PUK been transparent on Kirkuk’s oil?
I can’t accuse KDP or PUK, but definitely it gets stolen, whether it is by individual or a party.
Will you form an investigative committee on the Kirkuk oil?
We did. In some places it was smuggled. Some members of parliament came to Kirkuk and identified some names. But all of a sudden the issue was no longer on the agenda.
If you think someone covered up the issue, why don’t you raise it again?
It is out of our control.
There was some news about the involvement of some businessmen in doing business with ISIS on the Kirkuk border. What was your opinion? Why did not you talk about it until the media did?
I have no idea who those businessmen are.
It is said that you are afraid to talk about this issue. People say that some drivers were arrested, who were almost executed, to cover up the real perpetrators?
If anyone provides us with substantial evidence, we will take necessary action against the accused individuals with the condition that they are still in Kirkuk and have not fled to Kurdistan region.
Are you satisfied with the treatment of the Kurdistan Regional Presidency towards Kirkuk?
The president of the Kurdistan region attaches great importance to Kirkuk. We have very good coordination with the Peshmerga commanders in this area. We reach him for some of our needs and he is responsive.
Do you make phone calls with the president on issues related to your area?
Yes, the president calls and I call too. But we also have some complaints against the Kurdistan region. For instance, many times there have been meetings on important political issues but Kirkuk is not represented.
Are you involved in making important decisions related to Kirkuk?
Most of the time we have not been invited to those meetings.
Is it because you are stubborn or is it related to political rivalry?
To be honest, I don’t know the reason behind it. I am neither stubborn nor difficult. On the contrary, in my opinion the Kurdistan region would benefit from Kirkuk’s participation in the meetings.
Is it because of KDP’s unilateral action or the policy of KDP, PUK and
other Kurdish political parties?
In fact, all parties would act unilaterally if they could. Our political parties are not like Jefferson’s Party. The base of our political parties goes back to the 1940s and 1950s during the time of the Soviet Union.
Does that mean you have complaints about your party as well?
All of these parties are the product of the old Socialist parties that believe in some dogmatic ideology.
Are the KDP and PUK similar in this term?
Of course, they are similar in many ways. The political parties in Kurdistan can all be merged in one party.
Back in the days you were a member of KDP, now you are a PUK member?
In terms of patriotic ideologies, there is absolutely no difference.
You have been the personal physician of Mustafa Barzani and Jalal Talabani, What are the similarities between them?
Both of them were vey brave. They were very charismatic. I don’t any Kurdish leader as charismatic as them. They were both very generous. They loved to gain money to spend it on political causes.
Did Idris Barzani ask you to diagnose Mustafa Barzani’s illness?
We were in Tehran. Shafiq Qazaz was the government representative in Tehran at that time. Hazhar and another friend called Shakahawan Namiq were also there. Mustafa Barzani was residing in a house belonged to the government of Iran in Saltanat Abad. Idris Barzani called me asking to do some medical check up on Mustafa Barzani. I realized the situation and recommended a chest x-ray. Mustafa Barzani said if he gets treatment in Iran they want let him to go outside of Iran. He said he wanted to go to the US to discuss the Kurdish case with them.
Did he make medical treatment as an excuse to go to the US for the Kurdish case?
You can say that.
How long did you live with Mustafa Barzani?
Yes, from 1974 until we went to the US.
In your opinion, what was the most interesting thing about Mustafa Barzani?
He was very humble and simple. He did not like to be praised by people. He would get angry if someone had done that. He would get offended if someone called him president.
How did he want to be called?
Mr Barzani or Mulla Mustafa, his relatives would always call him Mulla Mustafa. I’ve seen him crying. When his brother, Sheikh Babo, passed away we were in Karaj. They called, Sabir Mustafa the father of Sirwan Barzani who was martyred by Saddam in Baghdad was there too. I went to do some medical check up on Mustafa Barzani. I told him Sir, Sheikh Babo has passed away. We left him alone and he started crying.
At that time Mustafa Barzani was sick, the corpse of Sheikh Babo was taken to Shino but we did not let Mustafa Barzani go. During the springtime, Mustafa Barzani, Idris Barzani, Mohsin Dizayee and I together went to Uremia and then to Shino to visit the grave of Sheikh Babo. We left him alone to have a moment of peace with his brother, he started crying very loudly.
Jalal Talabani called Kirkuk the Quds of Kurdistan, Mustafa Barzani described it as the heart of Kurdistan, how do you describe Kirkuk?
I would prefer to combine both descriptions, I have nothing else to add to what the two historical leaders of Kurds had to say about Kirkuk.
When will the Kurdistan region become independent?
I don’t know about the timing, but I don’t think it is too far. But the determination of Kurds is important. Eradicating corruption and trivial rivalries that could cause huge problems are very important.
Do you have memories with other Kurdish leaders such as Qasimlo and Apo?
I Saw Qasimlo in the 1970s, he was teaching at the Basra University and would visit Balakayati from time to time. I met Apo in Rome upon his request. Kani Yalmaz was PKK’s representative at that time in Europe; he called and said that Apo wanted to see me. On the day that I met him, he receive a court order that he was free to travel inside Italy but his advisers put him in trouble. He would travel between Russia and Greece, and finally was arrested in Kenya. I have seen Sadiq Sharafkandi, brother of Hazhar. As for other politicians, I am in contact with the eastern groups and both democratic parties. As for the Northern Kurds, I used to help them organize program in the U.S.
How do you define Neshirwan Mustafa?
He has a long history of serving the Kurdish movement. He thinks strategically and is very accurate in thinking.
What about Barham Salih?
He is a good diplomat and has good relations. We were very close friends in the US and did lots of good work together. He is very responsible and is respected by people.
What did you learn from Jalal Talabani and Newshirwan Mustafa?
I did not work with Neshirwan Mustafa that much, but I like his way of thinking strategically. You can learn a lot from Jalal Talabani. What I have learnt from Talabani is to implement his ideas about Kirkuk and the different components of Kirkuk.
Does Talabani set PUK’s current policies?
No.
Who sets PUK’s policy?
In fact, I don’t know what setting policy means, there is no one to set PUK policy.
Who runs the PUK?
The party is running, the politburo, PUK branches and organs are doing their jobs.
Why did you mention the two deputies of secretary general of PUK?
Of course they are playing their role. I hope that they will fully play their role as deputy secretary general, not as part of politburo or leadership council.
