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Well-known Turkish intellectual and sociologist İsmail Beşikçi said he would vote ‘yes’ if he had the right to take part in Kurdistan upcoming independence referendum.
The 78-year old is Turkish by ethnicity, but is known to be a fervent advocate of the Kurdish cause. It was due to his advocacy that he was imprisoned for 17 years.
Sitting down with Rudaw in Dusseldorf, Germany, Beşikçi predicted that the world that is now opposed to the referendum will accept the result if it is more than 80 percent ‘yes’ for independence.
Rudaw: The Kurds are on course for the independence vote set for September 25, 2017. Some countries have asked for the referendum to be called off, saying the timing is wrong. But the Kurdistan Region is determined to go ahead, arguing that the time is now. Do you think the timing is ripe for Kurdistan independence?
İsmail Beşikçi: A solution to the question of Kurdistan is long overdue. This problem should have been resolved in the 1920s. Why? In the 1920s and during the League of Nations, when the Ottoman Empire’s territory and Mesopotamia was divided by France and England, Iraq, which was controlled by England, was founded. The colonies of Jordan and Palestine which were under the rule of England were established, as well as the establishment of the colonies of Syria and Lebanon which were under the rule of France. The colony of Kurdistan should have been established at that time.
For instance, Sheikh Mahmud Barzinji called upon England to recognize him as the king of Kurdistan. The imperial states of the time didn’t approve the establishment of a colony for Kurdistan, let alone an independent Kurdistan. Kurdistan has representatives nowhere, despite being home to more than 50 million people. For example, if we look at the Gulf states like Kuwait, Qatar, Bahrain, the United Arab Emirates, and Yemen, these countries are very small and their populations are [small], yet they come and determine the future of the Kurds. In other words, it is too late to resolve the problem. That is why it is wrong to say the timing is not suitable.
Are there any dangers involved in this process?
No. The Kurds should persist in this regard.
The Kurds are very determined. Do you think this determination will be without risk?
I want to speak about Western countries that call for the cancellation or delaying of the referendum. The West stands for some
values such as freedom and equality. These values should be respected. The West, countries like Germany, France, England, Italy or the EU, these establishments should be able to on the basis of these values interfere in a series of problems wherever they emerge. For example, they should be able to interfere in social and political problems in quasi-developed countries.
The understanding that concerns the ‘integrity of Iraq’ renders these universal values insignificant. Why? It is not only Iraq. Syria, Iran and all the countries in the Middle East are sectarian, racist and authoritarian. That is, they are not democratic. This is while these universal values are held high by Kurdistan nowadays. The Kurdistan Regional Government (KRG) cares enough about the people of the region, like the Armenians, Turkmen and Yazidi Kurds. These are worthy of these universal values for which the West stands. The West should protect these values. In response to calls for the cancellation of the referendum, the Kurds should remind the West about the mass murder in 1988. Who spoke up? No one spoke up. There were no reactions.
Why didn’t they react?
Because they were supporting Iraq. The existence of these values, freedom and equality, is important, being a democratic country in the West – yet no response in the face of an anti-democratic and anti-human act like mass murder, neither France, nor Germany, nor England. There was reaction against the mass murder committed by Saddam’s regime against the Kurds only in Tel Aviv. It is values like freedom and equality which the West stands for. The West should always protect these values. People speaking of the integrity of Iraq are defending ideas of authoritarianism, racism, and sectarianism.
What should the Kurds do if the US, Russia, and the European Union don’t support the referendum?
What is important is the stance taken by the Kurds. If the referendum is held and 80 percent of the people vote yes, they will all, the US, Turkey, and Iran, accept this. Holding this referendum on September 25 is important. What should the Kurds think about when they go to the ballot boxes on September 25? People should think about their children and future generations. An independent
Kurdistan should become the love of the Kurds. In other words, they should think about the future of their children, grandchildren and an independent Kurdistan. For example, we hear people from time to time complaining that their ancestors didn’t leave behind an independent Kurdistan. We say this, and we are trying to achieve this, but this is becoming tougher day by day. In order for you not to confront the question as to why you didn’t leave behind an independent Kurdistan, you should go through these feelings on September 25, trying to build an independent Kurdistan.
Would you go to the ballot boxes if you were eligible to vote?
Yes.
Would you have voted yes?
Yes, I would have voted so.
Is it because you were arrested and tried because of the Kurds?
This is something different. Human beings, let’s say researchers, I think it is not good to say we did this and that. But when someone says this from outside, when they say you were sentenced and arrested, how do they think? Let me ask you this. How do you think about this? Your thinking is important. I am surely not asking you a question of this nature here. But it is the thinking of other people that matters in this regard. For example, Chomsky is a very valuable person in the United States. He is the person with most criticisms against the US administration and his criticisms are well-placed. Edward Sahid Wahab, a Palestinian, was the same. Jean Paul Sartre was very valuable in France. Sartre said: we are all murderers because France is committing mass murder in Algeria. We all – the intellectuals, political parties, the state and the government – are involved in this mass murder. We are all murders. That is why he was reported to De Gaulle as a person who was apparently belittling France and was hurting its national achievements. De Gaulle had said: Sartre is French. We can’t do anything. Look at this. There is no political or administrative punishment for people criticizing the government in the US, France or other places. For example, the third article in the US constitution concerns the
freedom of expression which is unlimited in the US.
What is the basis of Turkey’s concerns?
There is an establishment called ‘official ideology’ which is Turkey’s most important political establishment. But it is not mentioned in the constitution. It is an establishment that is above the constitution. It determines ideas, thinking, and conduct, i.e. the subject of university research, how they are done, and what political parties are saying. It determines these things. It will impose administrative punishment if you criticize it. There is no official ideology in democratic countries, although there are ideologies in every country. But there is no establishment specific to ideologies.
Will Turkey or Turkish society accept a new country called Kurdistan as its neighbor?
Let’s suppose the referendum was held and 80 percent of the votes were ‘yes.’ Everyone will accept this, including Turkey, Iran, the US, and the EU. But the Kurds should remind something to the EU. We spoke about the mass murder of March 16, 1988. In addition, from 1983 to 1988, Saddam Hussein’s regime had asked that the most poisonous gas be produced and used to destroy the Kurds. These countries remained silent, fearing that speaking up might upset Syria, Turkey, Iraq, and Iran. And they are speaking of the integrity of Iraq now. I think everyone will accept such a result.
Will Turkey accept this?
Yes.
What will happen if the Kurds lose this chance?
Self-governance is important to the Kurds. Iran blocked the water flow of the Zei Bchuk. There is agriculture in this area. How did it block the water flow? They can build dams within their borders. The development of agriculture here depends on water flow in the region. You cannot plan if you cannot govern yourself. It is very important if you could build a dam on Zei Gawre to generate electricity, through blocking the water flow of the lake by building a 150-metre high wall. International establishments or Iraq might oppose the construction of such a dam there though. The Kurds will do this though if they self-govern themselves. They will do this if the decisions of planning, development, and administration rest with themselves.
We have two strong neighbors demanding that we call off the referendum. What do you think of this?
They tell the Kurds not to self-govern themselves. They want to govern the Kurds by themselves. But the Kurds should be determined and say: we want to self-govern ourselves from now on. The development of Kurdistan is overdue, we will therefore plan its development ourselves and we will be working on the agriculture sector. For example, we will build a dam on Zei Gawre.
Do you think they will attack us like they did in the past?
The Kurds should be determined here.
What do you think the Kurds should do?
For example, they can ask the West why they were silent when the mass murder of 1988 happened. The West says the timing isn’t right, but the Kurds should criticize the West for choosing to be silent in the face of this inhumane act, this mass murder. New
remedies are tested on mice in the West. But Saddam Hussein’s regime used the Kurds for this purpose, using imprisoned Kurds, the Kurdish villages in 1983. Nearly 6,300 people were poisoned by chemical gas in Halabja. From 1983 to 1988, Kurdish villages were tested to find out which gas is poisonous. The West should be criticized in this regard, complaining for not reacting in the face of the many inhuman acts committed at the time, yet you ask the Kurds to delay the referendum through which they want to establish an independent Kurdistan, and you say this is not right. They should criticize the West, telling them that they need to govern themselves by themselves.
Do you think they will accept this?
Yes.
Will this become de facto?
Sure, if we say the EU or mention these states one by one, or speak of the EU as an establishment, they speak of the integrity of Iraq. But they will accept it if the referendum is held and its result is 80 percent yes. I think it will be this way.
The Soviet Union collapsed in 1990 leading to the creation of 15 states. Yugoslavia split in the same era, leading to the creation of seven states. Czechoslovakia split into two parts. The West took this easy. But they speak of the integrity of Iraq when it comes to this happening in Iraq, as if it is very sacred while it is not. Why? There were Baghdad and Basra wilayat [governorates] in the 1920s during the League of Nations. England was thinking about oil. Oil was discovered in Kirkuk back then. They worked to administer Mosul wilayat [including Kirkuk] into the Iraq they had designed.
They built Iraq this way, a Sunni country. I don’t think a state called Iraq exists anymore, yet they still speak of the integrity of Iraq. The US still says this too. The US invested billions of dollars in the Iraqi army in 2011. Mosul was the second place with the most military hardware. Nearly 60,000 soldiers were there. Yet we saw what happened in June 2014. They army pulled out without confronting ISIS, who seized all the military hardware there. ISIS used this weaponry to attack Kurdistan. The US is strengthening the Iraqi army. They had a very big military base in Mosul where ISIS seized all the weapons left behind.
The US wants to contain Iran, a Shiite country wanting to expand its powers in the Middle East. They want to render the Shiite sect an establishment. Yet the US still speaks of the integrity of Iraq where they invest. This is while financial assistance to Iraq is investment to Iran. For example, the Hashd al-Shaabi is an Iraqi force that is run by Iran. Delivering financial assistance to Iraq is delivering it to the Hashd al-Shaabi which fights the Kurds more than ISIS. The US and other western countries should be reminded of this. After all, Iraq is not a sacred country. You didn’t speak when the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia split. Why would you prevent it when the Kurds speak of freedom and independence?
The 78-year old is Turkish by ethnicity, but is known to be a fervent advocate of the Kurdish cause. It was due to his advocacy that he was imprisoned for 17 years.
Sitting down with Rudaw in Dusseldorf, Germany, Beşikçi predicted that the world that is now opposed to the referendum will accept the result if it is more than 80 percent ‘yes’ for independence.
Rudaw: The Kurds are on course for the independence vote set for September 25, 2017. Some countries have asked for the referendum to be called off, saying the timing is wrong. But the Kurdistan Region is determined to go ahead, arguing that the time is now. Do you think the timing is ripe for Kurdistan independence?
İsmail Beşikçi: A solution to the question of Kurdistan is long overdue. This problem should have been resolved in the 1920s. Why? In the 1920s and during the League of Nations, when the Ottoman Empire’s territory and Mesopotamia was divided by France and England, Iraq, which was controlled by England, was founded. The colonies of Jordan and Palestine which were under the rule of England were established, as well as the establishment of the colonies of Syria and Lebanon which were under the rule of France. The colony of Kurdistan should have been established at that time.
For instance, Sheikh Mahmud Barzinji called upon England to recognize him as the king of Kurdistan. The imperial states of the time didn’t approve the establishment of a colony for Kurdistan, let alone an independent Kurdistan. Kurdistan has representatives nowhere, despite being home to more than 50 million people. For example, if we look at the Gulf states like Kuwait, Qatar, Bahrain, the United Arab Emirates, and Yemen, these countries are very small and their populations are [small], yet they come and determine the future of the Kurds. In other words, it is too late to resolve the problem. That is why it is wrong to say the timing is not suitable.
Are there any dangers involved in this process?
No. The Kurds should persist in this regard.
The Kurds are very determined. Do you think this determination will be without risk?
I want to speak about Western countries that call for the cancellation or delaying of the referendum. The West stands for some
People speaking of the integrity of Iraq are defending ideas of authoritarianism, racism, and sectarianism 
The understanding that concerns the ‘integrity of Iraq’ renders these universal values insignificant. Why? It is not only Iraq. Syria, Iran and all the countries in the Middle East are sectarian, racist and authoritarian. That is, they are not democratic. This is while these universal values are held high by Kurdistan nowadays. The Kurdistan Regional Government (KRG) cares enough about the people of the region, like the Armenians, Turkmen and Yazidi Kurds. These are worthy of these universal values for which the West stands. The West should protect these values. In response to calls for the cancellation of the referendum, the Kurds should remind the West about the mass murder in 1988. Who spoke up? No one spoke up. There were no reactions.
Why didn’t they react?
Because they were supporting Iraq. The existence of these values, freedom and equality, is important, being a democratic country in the West – yet no response in the face of an anti-democratic and anti-human act like mass murder, neither France, nor Germany, nor England. There was reaction against the mass murder committed by Saddam’s regime against the Kurds only in Tel Aviv. It is values like freedom and equality which the West stands for. The West should always protect these values. People speaking of the integrity of Iraq are defending ideas of authoritarianism, racism, and sectarianism.
What should the Kurds do if the US, Russia, and the European Union don’t support the referendum?
What is important is the stance taken by the Kurds. If the referendum is held and 80 percent of the people vote yes, they will all, the US, Turkey, and Iran, accept this. Holding this referendum on September 25 is important. What should the Kurds think about when they go to the ballot boxes on September 25? People should think about their children and future generations. An independent
You cannot plan if you cannot govern yourself
Would you go to the ballot boxes if you were eligible to vote?
Yes.
Would you have voted yes?
Yes, I would have voted so.
Is it because you were arrested and tried because of the Kurds?
This is something different. Human beings, let’s say researchers, I think it is not good to say we did this and that. But when someone says this from outside, when they say you were sentenced and arrested, how do they think? Let me ask you this. How do you think about this? Your thinking is important. I am surely not asking you a question of this nature here. But it is the thinking of other people that matters in this regard. For example, Chomsky is a very valuable person in the United States. He is the person with most criticisms against the US administration and his criticisms are well-placed. Edward Sahid Wahab, a Palestinian, was the same. Jean Paul Sartre was very valuable in France. Sartre said: we are all murderers because France is committing mass murder in Algeria. We all – the intellectuals, political parties, the state and the government – are involved in this mass murder. We are all murders. That is why he was reported to De Gaulle as a person who was apparently belittling France and was hurting its national achievements. De Gaulle had said: Sartre is French. We can’t do anything. Look at this. There is no political or administrative punishment for people criticizing the government in the US, France or other places. For example, the third article in the US constitution concerns the
I don’t think a state called Iraq exists anymore
What is the basis of Turkey’s concerns?
There is an establishment called ‘official ideology’ which is Turkey’s most important political establishment. But it is not mentioned in the constitution. It is an establishment that is above the constitution. It determines ideas, thinking, and conduct, i.e. the subject of university research, how they are done, and what political parties are saying. It determines these things. It will impose administrative punishment if you criticize it. There is no official ideology in democratic countries, although there are ideologies in every country. But there is no establishment specific to ideologies.
Will Turkey or Turkish society accept a new country called Kurdistan as its neighbor?
Let’s suppose the referendum was held and 80 percent of the votes were ‘yes.’ Everyone will accept this, including Turkey, Iran, the US, and the EU. But the Kurds should remind something to the EU. We spoke about the mass murder of March 16, 1988. In addition, from 1983 to 1988, Saddam Hussein’s regime had asked that the most poisonous gas be produced and used to destroy the Kurds. These countries remained silent, fearing that speaking up might upset Syria, Turkey, Iraq, and Iran. And they are speaking of the integrity of Iraq now. I think everyone will accept such a result.
Will Turkey accept this?
Yes.
What will happen if the Kurds lose this chance?
Self-governance is important to the Kurds. Iran blocked the water flow of the Zei Bchuk. There is agriculture in this area. How did it block the water flow? They can build dams within their borders. The development of agriculture here depends on water flow in the region. You cannot plan if you cannot govern yourself. It is very important if you could build a dam on Zei Gawre to generate electricity, through blocking the water flow of the lake by building a 150-metre high wall. International establishments or Iraq might oppose the construction of such a dam there though. The Kurds will do this though if they self-govern themselves. They will do this if the decisions of planning, development, and administration rest with themselves.
We have two strong neighbors demanding that we call off the referendum. What do you think of this?
They tell the Kurds not to self-govern themselves. They want to govern the Kurds by themselves. But the Kurds should be determined and say: we want to self-govern ourselves from now on. The development of Kurdistan is overdue, we will therefore plan its development ourselves and we will be working on the agriculture sector. For example, we will build a dam on Zei Gawre.
Do you think they will attack us like they did in the past?
The Kurds should be determined here.
What do you think the Kurds should do?
For example, they can ask the West why they were silent when the mass murder of 1988 happened. The West says the timing isn’t right, but the Kurds should criticize the West for choosing to be silent in the face of this inhumane act, this mass murder. New
They will accept it if the referendum is held and its result is 80 percent yes
Do you think they will accept this?
Yes.
Will this become de facto?
Sure, if we say the EU or mention these states one by one, or speak of the EU as an establishment, they speak of the integrity of Iraq. But they will accept it if the referendum is held and its result is 80 percent yes. I think it will be this way.
The Soviet Union collapsed in 1990 leading to the creation of 15 states. Yugoslavia split in the same era, leading to the creation of seven states. Czechoslovakia split into two parts. The West took this easy. But they speak of the integrity of Iraq when it comes to this happening in Iraq, as if it is very sacred while it is not. Why? There were Baghdad and Basra wilayat [governorates] in the 1920s during the League of Nations. England was thinking about oil. Oil was discovered in Kirkuk back then. They worked to administer Mosul wilayat [including Kirkuk] into the Iraq they had designed.
They built Iraq this way, a Sunni country. I don’t think a state called Iraq exists anymore, yet they still speak of the integrity of Iraq. The US still says this too. The US invested billions of dollars in the Iraqi army in 2011. Mosul was the second place with the most military hardware. Nearly 60,000 soldiers were there. Yet we saw what happened in June 2014. They army pulled out without confronting ISIS, who seized all the military hardware there. ISIS used this weaponry to attack Kurdistan. The US is strengthening the Iraqi army. They had a very big military base in Mosul where ISIS seized all the weapons left behind.
The US wants to contain Iran, a Shiite country wanting to expand its powers in the Middle East. They want to render the Shiite sect an establishment. Yet the US still speaks of the integrity of Iraq where they invest. This is while financial assistance to Iraq is investment to Iran. For example, the Hashd al-Shaabi is an Iraqi force that is run by Iran. Delivering financial assistance to Iraq is delivering it to the Hashd al-Shaabi which fights the Kurds more than ISIS. The US and other western countries should be reminded of this. After all, Iraq is not a sacred country. You didn’t speak when the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia split. Why would you prevent it when the Kurds speak of freedom and independence?
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