ERBIL, Kurdistan Region - Germany will not provide funding for “Islamists” in Syria, Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock told Rudaw in an exclusive interview on Wednesday, emphasizing that Berlin’s support for the new leadership in Damascus depends on the country’s leading a democratic and inclusive political process.
“Germany and Europe are not prepared to provide funding for Islamists. This is our clear message. We are ready to help them lift sanctions for reconstruction, but there must be a political process in which all parties and all actors participate,” Baerbock said.
In December, a coalition of opposition groups led by Hay’at Tahrir al-Sham (HTS), headed by Ahmed al-Sharaa, toppled the regime of Syrian dictator Bashar al-Assad. In late January, Sharaa was appointed as Syria’s interim president and pledged commitment to an inclusive political process.
Baerbock remarked on Wednesday, “We have heard many good words [from the new leadership in Damascus], but words and talk alone are not enough. If it's just talk, without action, Syria will continue to be in crisis, and our assistance depends on these principles.”
Last week, Baerbock led a high-profile delegation to Damascus, where she met with Sharaa and oversaw the reopening of Germany’s embassy after a 13-year diplomatic hiatus. She then emphasized that Germany is monitoring developments in Syria, and “has a paramount interest in a stable Syria.”
On Wednesday, the German foreign minister told Rudaw that during her trip to Syria, she told the new leadership in Damascus “clearly,” that if things advance “in the wrong direction, we will not support it.”
The European Union pledged nearly €2.5 billion (around $2.7 billion) in aid for Syria last week, as global powers and regional countries gathered in Brussels to raise donations and address the country’s humanitarian crisis following years of war. Berlin allocated around €300 million (around $327 million) to United Nations agencies and select organizations assisting Syria.
Germany is also a key member of the global coalition to defeat the Islamic State (ISIS). Baerbock told Rudaw that she had asked the interim Syrian government in Damascus, “very clearly, why don't you become part of the anti-ISIS coalition?”
Although Baerbock was keen on visiting northeast Syria (Rojava) during her Syria trip, she told Rudaw she couldn’t due to security concerns. However, she praised the Kurds in Rojava who “were able to protect their security and forced ISIS to retreat.” She urged Kurdish parties there to “decide which path to take,” and “in unity, make a joint decision to take this path together.”
The following is the full transcript of the discussion with Baerbock.
Rudaw: During your participation in governance, you pursued a completely new policy, which more precisely was a feminist foreign policy. What were the achievements of your new policy?
Annalena Baerbock: How can a society in the world be secure if women are not protected in it? This is the essence of feminist foreign policy. The most beautiful thing about this world is that half of society is women. If half of society does not have their rights protected, no society can remain secure and free. Half of a society cannot be denied access to the country's prosperity. I did not discover this prominent way of thinking until now, but I found it in other societies. For example, in Ukraine before the Russian invasion, a Ukrainian woman told me in a conversation that if women are not safe, no one is safe.
I learned this in Rwanda after the genocide there. I learned this from the experiences of those in Latin America, from looking at your [people’s, the Kurdish people’s] experience in northern Iraq, in Iraq, in the Middle East, and now in Syria. Women's participation in society is a standard for evaluating a society. During my visit to Syria, I clearly explained that if women are not involved in governance, society cannot continue to be free because women are not treated equally, and are forced to suffer by other groups, especially by religious groups.
During your second trip to Damascus, you said that establishing a good relationship between Germany and the European Union on one side and Syria on the other, depends on turning words into action and respecting the rights and ensuring the participation of all nations and religions. Do you believe Ahmed al-Sharaa will do that?
I do not know that. If after more than ten years of civil war in Syria, a society that protects all segments of society is not established, if that does not happen, I think from the perspective of the international community it will be considered failed and unsuccessful. That is why we want to try to support this process. Will it succeed? That is not in our hands. Rather, it depends on the power that has become the de facto authority. Europe supports all people in Syria regardless of whether they are women or men, and regardless of what national and religious identity they have, but Germany and Europe are not prepared to provide funding for Islamists. This is our clear message. We are ready to help them lift sanctions for reconstruction, but there must be a political process in which all parties and all actors participate. We have heard many good words, but words and talk alone are not enough. If it is just talk, without action, Syria will continue to be in crisis, and our assistance depends on these principles.
Kurds, Druze, Christians, with one voice through public demonstrations and political positions, rejected Syria's interim constitution. Why would you help an authority that the components of the country reject?
We do not support such governments, neither there nor in other countries. We support the people of the communities. Those communities that are democratic and democratically elect their own governments. We, from outside, do not make that decision for anyone. We saw after November [SIC: December] some things we could not imagine. I want to say here also that in Germany, especially regarding [toppled dictator Bashar] al-Assad, that relations could not be normalized with him. Someone who for decades not only put his own people under pressure but also killed them - you yourselves [the Kurds] pointed out that chemical gas was used, and you yourselves [the Kurds] have experience with chemical gas, you have seen those people [in Syria] who have been exposed to chemical gas by [Assad].
In Germany, a young Syrian woman told me, ‘Ms. Baerbock, I was in that prison, the torture prison.’ I asked her ‘When?’ She said ‘When I was 16 years old.’ So it is important for me that we work with these people and with all their components. I told the current de facto president that we want to help the people. That is why we want to be there quickly. During my visit [to Syria], I met with Kurdish representatives, Alawite representatives, Christian representatives, and representatives from several women's organizations. In Jobar, which is a place [east of] Damascus that has been leveled to the ground, 8,000 people lived there. An elderly man told me his child was buried there.
Now there are no other actors coming forward. We do not necessarily need to see the [current] actors as good or bad, but this is what exists now. We have to deal with it. I met a Christian woman who said if a new government is formed, they have promised us that we will have representation, as well as representatives from different groups. When I spoke with Kurdish representatives, [they said] it is important [for their rights] to be ensured in the constitution and for things to be clearly stated. If this is a temporary constitution, it must be changed in the permanent constitution; that's what the Kurds say.
The Christians also told me they see things differently; these things must be considered in this government. Now at the end of March or at the beginning of April, supposedly a new government will be formed. I told them clearly, if it goes in the wrong direction, we will not support it - I stated this clearly there [in Damascus]. The right direction from the perspective of the people in Syria that is, and we are there too. We also see how Iran and [the Lebanese] Hezbollah want to direct this process in another direction. I talked about the Israelis, I clearly discussed Turkey's role, we talked about land issues and occupation, as well as the Russians, for example, who have withdrawn [forces], but have not withdrawn completely.
They [Russians] have continuously tried to support the Assad family. If Europeans are not there now, certainly with their Arab neighbors, others will go there, and then the process will not be in the interest of the people. Will we succeed in this? I do not know. If not, at least we tried.
What should Germany and the world do to ensure that Kurdish rights are protected in the Syrian constitution and in practice as the second largest ethnicity, and as the ones who sacrificed the most in the war against the Islamic State (ISIS)?
In my first discussion, I very clearly stated that ISIS was hell for the people in Iraq, and we felt the impact of ISIS in Europe as well. With the support of the global coalition to defeat ISIS, the Kurds were able to protect their security and forced ISIS to retreat. Following the ensuing vacuum, ISIS should not be allowed to return. As the second largest ethnicity in Syria, it is important to align the Kurds’ security with Syria's national security, as well as their own national interest. Of note, we were together with the Kurds in an alliance against ISIS, forcing it to retreat. This is important, and I told the interim Syrian government very clearly there, ‘Why do not you become part of the anti-ISIS coalition?’
Representatives of the German Foreign Ministry, our staff, visited these areas in northern Syria. Due to security concerns, I could not visit the area in person, but we were able to create an opportunity for negotiations between Sharaa and [SDF chief] Mazloum [Abdi]. We cannot say they must do this and that, but at least create an opportunity for them to talk together. The Kurds themselves must decide which path to take, and it is important that Kurds, with unity, make a joint decision that they will take this path together, but there is still no collective political decision there [in northeast Syria, Rojava]. For example, there is the issue of national identity and the Kurdish language, which must be reflected in the constitution. There is also the issue of protection and security for Kurds and Druze.
Alongside these things, looking at women's rights, the issue is not just about women, but rather about women within their components, ethnic groups, how their representatives and Kurdish representatives will be in the future Syria. I told the representatives of the parties there, if these different voices come together, you have many things in common - not just the demands of Kurds, Druze, Christians - but come together and say these are our common demands. This becomes the demand of a large part of the nation. I now look at the good things – all of them, all Syrians were thinking about their children being safe and being able to go back to school. In rebuilding, Germany is ready to help and has been ready to help, has sent aid, but there has been no way for it to reach some regions. Food, rebuilding assistance, helping schools – this government [in Damascus] must pave the way for this. It should not just work for the capital where it is located and abandon other places.
Christian Democrats and Social Democrats in Germany are busy forming a government, and negotiations are ongoing. Are you weary about the new German government’s immigration policy?
Different parties have different positions on this matter. Those who, after many years, decided on immigration policy immediately decided to make dictatorial decisions that clearly contradict our values and positions. Imagine we were the ones fleeing from Assad, what would happen? Of course, we would have certainly been faced with a disaster. A few days after Assad fled, some [German] politicians were talking about this [sending Syrian refugees home], but I clearly told them that they had no idea about the [reality of the] situation [on the ground]. I was there and saw with my own eyes… you are at the heart of a city where 18,000 people are living, but the entire place is in ruins. Where would the immigrants return to? Where would they be forced to return to? This must be clearly discussed. No one returns voluntarily if their wife and daughter are not safe. This is feminist foreign policy. The issue is discussed from this perspective as well.
I also want to say that many Syrians have not only adapted well in Germany but have become good neighbors, good employees, and work in hospitals. I think some of those people who talk about sending them [Syrian immigrants] back are far from reality. Certainly, for the rebuilding of Syria, they want to participate, but until there is certainty about the political situation, no one can return. This cannot be solved with a wave of returns. That's why at the Standing with Syria conference [in Brussels on March 17], it was discussed: In Turkey, there are three million Syrian refugees; they are also present in Lebanon and Jordan. We have internationally agreed that they should return when the country is safe or its security has been maintained. In Lebanon itself, they are not safe because there is [the Israel-Hezbollah] conflict there. There, they are supported through the United Nations. Now that 70 percent [of people] in Syria need assistance, on top of that situation would come millions more people. What would we face then? Those who do not want Syria to succeed.
This is a step-by-step process. First, let Syrians from countries neighboring [Syria] be able to return, then we will see how things proceed. We do not know what will happen six months from now. Now our shared responsibility is to stabilize the country and ensure political participation and security for all; later, other questions will be addressed. I spoke with our interior minister, and we discussed that those who have received German citizenship, as well as those who have permanent residence, can travel and go see their families whom they have not seen for more than ten years, and also see and ask what happened to their homes.
We must now see with the new government that many Syrians want to [go back and] live in Syria. This is in all our interests. We must see how things go and together face the Islamist forces if in the future we have a civil struggle and partnership together. Very strongly, we can struggle against Islamist forces.
Thousands of Kurds would like to know why you did not visit northeast Syria (Rojava)?
Due to security concerns. The director of the Middle East [and North Africa] office [at the German foreign office, Tobias Tunkel] was there. He kept us informed [about the situation], especially [in light of the dialogue] between Kurdish representatives, namely [SDF chief] Mazloum [Abdi], and [Syria’s interim President] Sharaa.
As foreign minister, I must consider the safety of my colleagues and also the safety of journalists who travel with me. In a situation of war and conflict, no one would take such a risk. But I hope that one day, perhaps in other circumstances, I will visit there [Rojava] to reach that very beautiful region and see the people of that area.
You have decided to relocate to New York, and you are set to start working at the United Nations. Why did you make that decision? Doesn't Germany need an experienced politician like you?
This is democracy. People in Germany decided that other parties should govern. Perhaps this sets an example for others as well, [to allow others to govern]. Elections must be respected. The decision of those who vote is free, and in life, there are always other stages.