Former CIA director recommends Peshmerga initiative for SDF

SULAIMANI, Kurdistan Region - The Kurdish-led Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) could be deployed to other parts of Syria, similar to how the Peshmerga were deployed across Iraq following the US invasion in 2003, former CIA Director David Petraeus told Rudaw.

The SDF is in talks with Damascus to be integrated into the new Syrian army, as stipulated in a landmark between both sides in March. 

"Huge efforts [were made] to rebuild all of the [Iraqi] Ministry of Defense and Ministry of Interior Forces. Many, many hundreds of thousands, eventually almost a million men with weapons for various functions. We included the Peshmerga units. And when we needed them to fight not just for the Kurdish region, but to fight for Iraq, they deployed. They fought in Anbar province, in Fallujah and other places. So when we needed those forces, they came and fought throughout Iraq," Petraeus, who served as the director of the CIA under President Barack Obama in 2011, said on Wednesday.

"My hope would be that you would have something similar in northeastern Syria, perhaps without maybe all of the governmental aspects of the Kurdish region, which were necessary at the time, given the situation in the rest of Iraq," he added. 

As per the latest agreement between the SDF and Damascus, the SDF-affiliated counterterrorism forces will be deployed to other parts of Syria to help the interim government fight the Islamic State (ISIS), SDF chief Mazloum Abdi announced this week. 

Petraeus also talked about Iraq-Iran relations, the latest peace process between Ankara and the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK) and the future of Syrian President Ahmed al-Sharaa's government. 

The following is the full transcription of the interview with Petraeus:

You were here in 2003 or before. What has changed since then in terms of the way our leaders think? 
 
I came here in March of 2003, of course, as the commander of the 101st Airborne Division during the invasion of Iraq and the liberation of the country from the murderous regime of Saddam Hussein. I've watched the evolution of Iraq ever since that time, so we're talking obviously well over 20 years. I served here as a two-star general, a three-star general, a four-star commanding the surge in Iraq, was later the commander of US Central Command, so still the region and then after command in Afghanistan was CIA director. And I have still returned here numerous times since leaving [the] government. On this trip, I've spent time obviously here in Sulaimani, where it's going to be a privilege to deliver the graduation address at the American University of Iraq, Sulaimani, this afternoon, with President [Nechirvan] Barzani here as well, honoring all of us.

I was in Erbil several days ago. I was able to do what's called the full Barzani, which is all three. The current president, the current prime minister, and of course, President Emeritus, Masoud Barzani, with whom I partnered over the years, again over four years on the ground actually here. I also of course saw the Deputy Prime Minister Qubad [Talabani] and then was in Baghdad and did the full Baghdad. The President [Abdul Latif Rashid] and Prime Minister [Mohammed Shia’ al-Sudani] and Speaker of the Parliament there [ Mahmoud Mashadani], also my old comrade, the Prime Minister from the days of the surge in Iraq. And I've been hugely impressed by what I've seen in every single city. In Baghdad, for example, the road that was described as the most dangerous road in the world, that from the airport to the green zone, is now an absolutely showpiece. It's extraordinary to see the transformation.

I was able to take a helicopter flight all over Baghdad city as I used to when I was the commander. And I was just so pleased to see how the city has blossomed, to see all the construction to see the advances, the continued growth. And the same is true in Erbil, without question. The same is true here in Sulaimani. 

So a lot of us who were part of helping Iraq throw off the regime of Saddam Hussein, and then watched all of the tough fighting with al-Qaeda in Iraq, with various militia elements, insurgents then eventually the Islamic State, I think all of us are so pleased to see how Iraq has blossomed in that time, noting that there are still all of the usual challenges of politics and political infighting and other challenges. And all of that is fine. Democracy sometimes can be noisy, it can be sometimes a bit messy. But to see the progress that has been made in the Kurdish region in the capital of the land of the two rivers is hugely heartening for me.

What you said was about the cities in Iraq and the Kurdistan Region. What about how our leaders think?

I leave the political thinking to others. It's always been intense. This is a full contact sport, as they say in the United States. And again, as President Bush used to observe during the surge in Iraq, politics can be difficult sometimes. And it is, and that's okay. That's how the people's voice is heard, and it's frankly wonderful to see all of the political posters and the many political parties that are represented on the light poles here in Baghdad as well, needless to see as well. And we'll see how that turns out after 11 November.

The Kurdistan Region had an important position in Iraq after 2003. Does that position remain today?

Absolutely so. At various times, the Kurdish region has been an example of what right looks like. And it's still, again, the economy is booming. There's ups and downs, and again, there's politics, and that's challenging without question. But it's wonderful to see, again how much has expanded in terms of every aspect of infrastructure, housing, business, and indeed the universities. And again, I'm very proud to have supported the American University of Iraq - the only one of the American universities that has Iraq in its name here in Sulaimani and to be delivering the graduation address here today and also to be honored with an honorary PhD, which I'm told is the first one that AUIS has given.

You've been here in Sulaimani for three days. 

Yes, in Iraq, yeah. And again, we're down here and there and everywhere else. 

And there's a lot of talk about the changes in Sulaimani. Did you see these in three days of stay? 

Of course I have. I mean, it's extraordinary. No, it's absolutely extraordinary. Look, I used to come here in 2003. In part, I would come here, I would take off my Kevlar helmet and my body armor and I would just walk. All I wanted to do was walk down the street without worrying about my security.

Is that a great change? 

Now you don't even see body armor in Kevlar. No, it's wonderful to see how this has evolved. Has it always been smooth and easy and all blue skies? No. Again, welcome to democracy.

America in 2003 had a big role in Iraq. Has it changed now? 

It is evolving. We also were able to sit down with the chargé d'affaires of the US Embassy. We do not have an ambassador there right now. And he talked about how it's wonderful to work with Iraq and to start to make it like a normal embassy, a normal relationship between the US and a country, not to be so dominated just by the security issues, not to be dominated just by the fight against the Islamic State, or the other related issues. But to turn this into a normal mission and to focus much more on US investment and business and the economy rather than exclusively on building security forces, which are quite impressive. And I flew on an Iraqi Air Force fixed wing aircraft and an Iraqi forces rotary wing helicopter and of all things the pilot of the helicopter turned around and he said, ‘General, you spoke at the military academy graduation, my class, and you gave me your coin.’ He actually earned a coin, I think, for earning a particular award in that academy. It's nice to see, in a sense, I mean, this is a little bit of my legacy here going on and again the next generation of leaders that grew out of what it was we were seeking to do here in Iraq. 

In the past, the US paid used to be focused on establishing the Iraqi government. Do you believe it will do the same for this election?

Probably not, no. 

Why? 

Because I don't think we need to guide this the way that we have in the past. I think that the era where the US in many respects was determining the future, if you will, is not necessary. I think that the systems have matured, again, as always.

Has the system matured?

Systems have matured, again, never perfect. Remember Churchill who said, democracy is the worst form of government except for all the others. 

Large companies like ExxonMobil and Chevron are making agreements with Iraq…

They're returning, which is great to see. General Electric is back. By the way, we did a lot of that during the surge in Iraq, and brought them back. And then the problem was, of course, that the Islamic State threat scared business away. And then there are also other challenges, as always. 

Why is ExxonMobil making a comeback?  

It's great to see ExxonMobil back here. I mean, you know, again, ExxonMobil doesn't do charity. This is not international development. This is ExxonMobil here to certainly invest in infrastructure, but to make a profit. And that is a great statement… I'm a partner with one of the world's biggest investment firms. Every country wants to see KKR invest [in] it. So it's wonderful to see Exxon, Chevron, General Electric, all of the major corporations that have been in here in the past but then many of which left because of various issues, that to be now back is, that's a great vote of confidence in the future of the land of the two rivers, the Bilad Rafidain. 

Does the US still view the Kurdistan Region as a strategic partner or something has changed?

Oh, no. I mean, look, the US since really 1991, think about it, has been the strategic partner of the Kurds. We protected this Region, of course, in the wake of the Gulf War. And that relationship still very much continues. There's still a presence here, as you will know, of various very important elements of the US military and the US government. And I think that's as it should be. 

Still a strategic partner?

Yeah, sure. You call it whatever you want. I just used to say, look, the Kurds have friends other than the mountains, and that includes the United States of America. 

How do the Kurds and the region maintain a balance in working with both Iran and America?

Iran, I think we always have understood, is Iraq's neighbor. It's not going anywhere. It's many times the size of Iraq. It's also very nefarious in a variety of different ways. It has sanctions on it in various different ways. And so those who deal with Iran do so because it is a reality, but always obviously have to be careful. Again, obviously, not to violate sanctions or other restrictions on working with Iran.

How to be careful?

Well, they understand the, again, the sanctions that exist, understand also the realities that exist, and then try to navigate between those. 

What about Russia? You know, major Russian oil companies are working in the Kurdistan Region and Iraq. 

Well, and again, I would caution anyone who works with Russia to understand the sanctions that have been imposed on Russia, which I think will be expanded, not just by the EU with its 19th round of sanctions, and I was just in Brussels and talked to the EU and NATO leaders, but also imposed by the United States. There is a package of sanctions in the US Congress, and if the EU does what President Trump has asked it to do relative to Russia, I think you'll see our sanctions package in the Senate. By the way, 84 of 100 senators support this sanctions package. It doesn't get any more bipartisan than that. And I think once the situation is right, the White House will welcome that package of sanctions, sign it into law. And those who then do business with Rosneft or whatever it may be, need to be very careful that they don't run on the wrong side of that.

Let's talk about Syria. You support Syrian President Ahmed al-Sharaa… 

Let's be very precise about that. I want Ahmed al-Sharaa’s Syria to succeed. And his success as the leader of a government is our success. Look, I am more conscious than anyone can imagine of his past. Keep in mind that he was in detention in Iraq for five years and that period included the search. Someone else detained him. I never even knew his name. He was an al-Qaeda cell leader. He was not a huge leader the way some people make him out to be of al-Qaeda. But when he got out, of course, he went to Syria and he established the Nusra Front, which was an al-Qaeda affiliate. He broke away from that, established Hay’at Tahrir al-Sham, and built real military capability. This was not just a bunch of tribal or political militia elements that banded together and liberated Aleppo and then continued through Hama, Homs to liberate Damascus. He built real capability. He built governance in the Idlib province. He had education, he had a judicial system, all of that. Now he's trying to bring the whole country back together. And when I interviewed him on stage in New York during his attendance at the UN General Assembly at the Concordia Summit, I noted that when I was commander in northern Iraq in the very early days…

You chased him?

No, I didn't even know of him. We sought to create a provincial government in Nineveh province that was representative of all the ethnic, sectarian, tribal, political, district, business, you name it. Every element in Nineveh, we wanted to have a representative on the provincial council that we built in proportion. The numbers would be in proportion to the rough numbers of that group in Nainawa's population.But above all, not to just have majority rule, but to have minority rights. And he said that that is what he is seeking in Syria as well. Now, this is going to be very challenging. There's a free Syrian army in the north, largely linked with Turkey. You have the Alawites out on the coast, the former regime. You have his areas of Idlib down to Damascus. You have other elements. You have the Druze down in Suwayda. You have other elements that are close to Jordan. You have the Syrian Democratic Forces, of course, the largely Syrian Kurds in the northeast, and our forces are still with them because it was they who destroyed the Islamic State on the ground in northeastern Syria with our help, to be sure. And they are still performing [a] very important [mission]. 

But I was heartened to see that General Mazloum [Abdi of the SDF] has been in discussions with Damascus to determine how his forces can become part of the federal forces, and how they can actually ensure the security still in that area, but to do it increasingly. You know, when I was a three-star here in Iraq, I established what was called the train and equip mission, the Multinational Security Transition Commander Rock. Huge effort [were made] to rebuild all of the Ministry of Defense and Ministry of Interior Forces. Many, many hundreds of thousands, eventually almost a million men with weapons for various functions. We included the Peshmerga units. And when we needed them to fight not just for the Kurdish region, but to fight for Iraq, they deployed. They fought in Anbar province, in Fallujah and other places. So when we needed those forces, they came and fought throughout Iraq. My hope would be that you would have something similar in northeastern Syria, perhaps without maybe all of the governmental aspects of the Kurdish region, which were necessary at the time, given the situation in the rest of Iraq. 

You mentioned Druze and Alawites in Syria. Sharaa does not have a good experience with the two communities in Syria. 

Not only that, there have been murders in these communities. There have been executions. And I discussed this. I confronted him with this on stage. Look, I started by noting the two of us were on the other side. The two of us were on the other side. But what a path he has had. Look, we reconciled with 103,000 former insurgents and also militia when I was the commander of the surge in Iraq. And we want him to succeed now. In fact, I thought it was wonderful to see President Trump meet with him in Saudi Arabia to lift the executive branch sanctions that were on him from that time, and now to encourage Congress to lift the so-called Caesar Act, which prevents the investment in the financial construction and energy sectors of Syria, which all desperately need outside investment. So again, my end in that conversation was to recognize that, Mr. President, your success is now our success and we should enable it… 

Do you believe that Sharaa could establish a democratic government or a society in Syria?

This is his job. Again, he has to do this. If he doesn't do this, Syria becomes another fragmented state, another one of the countries in the greater Middle East that is suffering from the effects of post-authoritarian rule. Bashar al-Assad and his father, these were murderous regimes. And they imposed the will of a small minority on an overall country. To bring that back together now is an imperative. That has to happen. And, by the way, when we support Ahmed al-Sharaa in seeking to establish a government of all the people with minority rights as well as majority rule, there should be limits. There should be conditions on what we do, as always. Don't trust, verify, as used to be said about arms control negotiations by Henry Kissinger and President Nixon, I believe. 

What does the future hold for the SDF and its all-female Women’s Protection Units (YPG)?

As I said already, the SDF forces, I think, will be incorporated in some way. That's what the dialogue between President al-Sharaa and General Mazloum has been. That's a focus. There's a lot of other details that have to, including what to do about al-Hol refugee camp, which has tens of thousands of relatives, wives, former wives, children of Islamic State individuals and some Islamic State terrorists all detained. This is going to have to be sorted out. And I'm actually encouraged to see Iraq, for example, bring the Iraqis back from that camp and then to certainly bring them to justice. 

The peace process in Turkey and those regions will be processed. What can the peace process offer to the Kurdish community in Turkey? Do you see Turkey progress in the process as serious or tactical?

No, I think it's very serious. I think it's very strategic. When you have [Jailed PKK leader Abdullah] Ocalan leading this, obviously this is not trivial. This is not tactical. This is very strict. And as someone who has come to deeply understand Kurdish desires and correct aspirations. I went to the Turkish Kurd refugee camp at Makhmour. That was part of my area of operations as a two-star general and [I] sat down and sought to understand why did they leave Turkey? What were their aspirations if they could return to Turkey? And they were quite straightforward, you know, be able to study in our language, to maybe have a newspaper in our language, certainly to recognize that we're part of it. So again, I think I have some understanding of this. And my sense is that President [Recep Tayyip] Erdogan and his government are treating these aspirations seriously, and my hope would be that they will be successfully concluded. 

What will the peace process bring for Turkey’s Kurds?

Well, I hope that it is a future that acknowledges and recognizes their aspirations.

Mr. David Petraeus, former director of CIA. It's an honor to interview you. 

The honor is mine, and actually the real honor is to come back to see parts of Iraq where I served and to be so heartened by what I see there, to see the progress, to see the construction, to see thriving economies, despite all of the challenges and still lack of achievement of everything that we all dreamed of. But it's very heartening for someone who commanded a force, who was writing letters of condolence to America's mothers and fathers every night. And now I can go back to those mothers and fathers and say, this was really worth it. Look at what has been achieved by the people who we gave a new opportunity in the land of the two rivers.

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